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Ministry of Change
#20 Kim Brown's Story: Wolf Medicine and Connecting with Nature
July 16, 2018 Marcus Pibworth

This is another conversation I recorded on my visit to the Isle of Wight last month.

It was lovely to meet Kim Brown and spend a bit of time with her.

Kim has done loads of amazing work in the sphere of mental health over the years, a lot of which involves taking people out into nature to reconnect with themselves and the environment.

She set up a centre for Highly Sensitive People (HSPs) on the island, and runs an organisation called Nature Therapy, as well as running a programme called Wolf Medicine - which helps people to find their unique way of being to enable them to walk their own path in the world. As the name suggests, part of this process involves spending time with wolves, which you can hear more about from Kim in this conversation.

To find out more about Kim’s work check out her website: Nature Therapy CIC .

If you could take a moment to rate and review this podcast on iTunes that would help these stories reach more people, and I’d appreciate that so much!

If you feel that you would like to contribute to a future episode please get in contact - marcus@theministryofchange.org - and check out my website www.theministryofchange.org for more details about my mental health journey around the UK.

Also if you like what you hear and would like to support me to continue to create more spaces to talk about mental health, please have a look at my Patreon page

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1:0:02Mental health can be a difficult topic to talk about. I'd like to change that. I'm Marcus [inaudible] and welcome to the Ministry of change podcast.

Speaker 1:0:12Hi. Yes, welcome to the ministry or change, um, for anyone that's listened quite regularly. You know, one of the reasons that I started ministry have changed with because I really wanted to explore what else was out there in terms of navigating mental health. I found from my own experience with depression and anxiety and you speaking to other people that the general sort of way it works is you go to the GP eventually it took me years to get to that point. But you go to the GP, you speak to them and they will generally prescribe you sort of talking therapy or medication and that's not really to fault them. I think the NHS is massively overstretched and uh, and it's, I don't, I don't know what the solution from that point of view is, but I think I wanted to go and talk to the people which sort of doing other things which are already exploring different paths.

Speaker 1:1:10And um, I've met loads of really interesting people doing things which I just hadn't ever imagined existed before I sort of started exploring. So it's been great and I'm, so I'm really excited about this conversation. It's with a woman called Kim Brown, who she lives on the isle of wight and so it was done the isle of wight recently. I recorded this conversation with her. And so Ken's already fascinating person. She's worked in sort of mental health in some aspect for, for most of her life really. And currently she runs programs which really sort of bring people back into nature and they sort of tackling the disconnect we have as a society to nature. And she also runs this fabulous program called Wolf Medicine, which I've just spoken to lots of people that it really has really helped them and not even incorporates a well as the name suggests and wolves and other animals such as horses in the therapy sessions.

Speaker 1:2:09Um, I will let, I'll let him explain more, uh, in, in the conversation, but I think it's already a good one and I hope you enjoy it. As I say at the beginning of all of my podcasts, if you do like the Ministry of change podcast that I would really appreciate if you could take a few moments to go on itunes and rate and review it and subscribe. That way I can reach more people and I, I just really feel passionate about spreading these stories as far as I can. So thank you for that. But for now I will hand you over to my conversation with Kim. I hope you enjoy it.

Speaker 2:2:49Hope it helps. And if I start with just a brief biography of how I started in working in the field of mental health and what led me into it. Um, when was a child. My parents divorced when I was quite young and my mother remarried and the chap that she remarried his family were all incarcerated as like any explain it because this was the sixties in a psychiatric hospital. His mom and four sisters. There was five of them that were all diagnosed with having a schizophrenia at the time. And of course the treatment then was we didn't have the types of drugs that we have available now, so the treatment was primarily hospitalization and so a lot of my early life was spent going to the psychiatric hospital, this big hospital and just being left to roam around it and meet people and uh, why they, my mom and my Stepdad met with all the family and uh, uh, I seen group of Customs, people acting in very different ways and knew who to, who I could go and talk with and who best to just leave alone quietly to themselves.

Speaker 2:4:05And of course, old psychiatric hospitals in those days had the most beautiful grounds. They were institutions and some of the practices when we look back on them are really poor, especially around that time. And uh, but they were places that people could go when they were suffering from extreme stress and be amongst a quietish environment in terms of nature. Being outside and being part of a bigger picture was still being cared for. When I say the bigger picture, I mean in terms of the environment and nature. Of course we've lost those now and we have um, modern treatments in terms of anti psychotics and medications that are available to people. So my early life was really spent growing up around quite severe mental illness and being part of a, uh, an institution and a system and then when I was about sort of 12 and I hit adolescence, I found that I experienced personally a really bad time.

Speaker 2:5:17I'll come back to that later. But at the time, I mean, I know now that I am a highly sensitive person because of the work done by Professor Elaine Aron in New York. It's very well recognized across the states being hsp that in the UK there is only actually three support groups and there's one in Brighton, there's one in London and there's one on the isle of wight. But I've established once I learned more about it, 20 percent of the population or hsp and um, it's, it's not, uh, it's not, um, a diagnosable disorder is a way of being, is just how you are. And what they've proven is it's not just, you're sensitive and you cry a lot. It's too deep. Sensory processing and they've done a lot of research with brain scans and they show that people that are hsp hsp process information at a much, much deeper level so they're the type of people that will take something and look at it from every single angle and process it and question it.

Speaker 2:6:25And so like often they're often described as having or diagnosis having depression, anxiety, some of the so called neurotic disorders because of the way that they will process information and they often get misdiagnosed. But I'm trying to raise awareness now of HSP, especially children. They're hsp that will suffer as school, but we'll come back to that because I'll go back to where I'd started a while I'd finished in my adolescence, was it sort of kicked home. The HSP really, really kicked time about that time. So around the age of 12 I was using drugs sort of being a little bit wild, trying to counteract this deep emotions and sensitivity that I was experiencing. Didn't know how to deal with it. And uh, of course there was absolutely no awareness of it whatsoever. Um, and from there I then, uh, I experienced the death of a child, so my daughter died, which sort of threw me a little bit, I wouldn't say over the edge, but through me sort of deeper into this sensory processing and the grief was absolutely overwhelming and so I decided that the only thing I could do with my life really was to go into psychiatry because it was something that I knew and understood.

Speaker 2:7:54I understood that world. It didn't frighten me. Oh, I wanted to go into it and try and understand more, try and make a difference. So I ended up when I was 17 going into psychiatric nursing because I'd had a minder who go and I was quite young. I was 15 and I'm from there. I developed a career. So I went from psychiatric nursing to general nursing. I worked in casualty in London. I then came back to psychiatric nursing and worked mostly with young teenagers and young adolescents because there was a part of me that identified with my own problems with that particular group of young people, worked a lot with children in prison. Um, eventually I ended up, uh, as, uh, an advisor at the Home Office on children and young people in the criminal justice system and mental health problems. And that's mainly because I worked in a drug action team.

Speaker 2:8:59I'm a trained as a midwife. I'd done a massive different things as well as academic things constantly trying to fill my brain with a use the skills I had from sensory processing to try and examine things in minute detail can be pretty exhausting being unite, GSP pretty so estate. And uh, uh, eventually I became ceo of a charity and then I had a breakthrough. I just couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't play this game of being academic and career and, um, I wanted to do truly what my heart wanted to do. And so I threw in everything I threw in this good job, the salary. Uh, uh, by that time I had a doctorate in health science and had been off studying in the states. I've been fortunate enough to, uh, study at coin assisted psychotherapy, the involvement of horses and study with some of the indigenous populations in the states, uh, funded by scholarship.

Speaker 2:10:11So I came back and I thought, I can't do it anymore, just can't do this no matter what the salary is and they want the prestige I've got to do follow my heart. So I set up an organization called nate therapy, which was basically just using all the resources around us that we have available and nature therapy is about using your senses because we live in a lot of us. Certainly really guilty of that was just living in my head in my brain and trying to rationalize and logical eyes and academic academic eyes if that's not even a word, everything that I came across but want it. It's not how we as humans should be living. We've lost a hot source in this brace to, um, this race to make everything proven academically. We've lost. We've lost an awful lot. And what we've lost primarily is our connection with the world around us, with, with our sense of reality and the connection with the world.

Speaker 2:11:21And you see it more and more as mental, mental illnesses, um, happening more and more. It's more people saying they feel disconnected in some way. They don't feel a sense of belonging and connection to anything around them, which causes this disconnect. So I set up nature therapy. The first one of the first programs I set up was around nature therapy in dementia care because suddenly I had some time, I wasn't constantly rushing off to work or to university or to do some research and uh, spent some time with my dad who develop dementia. So developed a program and then, um, Portsmouth city council funded it for me to train people around using nature for people with dementia. And we found that there was a massive, massive drop in the rate of aggression amongst people and agitation once they were outside. But that was only what I'd experienced 40 years ago.

Speaker 2:12:22Working in a psychiatric hospital said if keeping people, masses of drugs, just being able to go out for a walk into the quiet environment around the hospital can make huge difference. And since that time, there's now becoming more and more research about the impact of nature on humans. But from that program I divert program called Wolf medicine that I run now. And that was because I had some funding from the Ministry of Defense to work with people with PTSD, posttraumatic stress disorder, and it wasn't just returning war vets with ptsd because actually the Ministry of Defense, a very, very poor at recognizing ptsd for a variety of reasons. One is, of course, is having to support people once they're diagnosed and um, pay for them so they're not very good at recognizing ptsd. But they did. I did get some funding to help develop program. So I work with some people that had ptsd to, to, to develop the, what was the prototype of all medicine because a lot of the work I'd done had been with horses.

Speaker 2:13:35We involved horses, um, and we involved being outside in nature primarily. So I then started to notice that those that have ptsd were when I did some testing with people, 70 percent of them were hsp, uh, and it started to click in really the actually, if you are highly sensitive person and something happens to you in the ptsd world, there seems to be this. I haven't had it as bad as you, you know, I shouldn't be suffering. It doesn't make any difference if it's traumatic to you. It doesn't matter if somebody had an orphan, what might appear on the surface or worse experience than you. It was traumatic to you and in terms of hsp the processing of that will cause and the continual processing with that will cause the trauma. But so I noticed the say 20 percent of the population globally or HSP, but for people with PTSD, 70 percent in my study were hsp and also 70 percent headache addiction problems.

Speaker 2:14:48So there was a huge link between being hsp suffering from PTSD, complex ptsd as well, which comes from childhood as well as traumatic Ptsd and addiction. It was a real link between the three of them, those particular ways of being. So I'm recruited some people to help me develop this program further and what we started to do was also involved walls in the program. Um, so we were using a lot of ancient knowledge things like medicine, wheels, lab, Brent's, all the things that I'd been fortunate to go off and study as part of my scholarship and learn about, um, and we were using forest bathing. We were using lots of different techniques that are sort of coming back and being reinvented. Basically the Japanese, we use a lot of work from Japanese. It didn't have a religious one religious context, but it had a spiritual context.

Speaker 2:15:57And what I was finding that the, when somebody becomes mentally unwell, they are given care. They give him medication, their social, their, where their physical needs are met. But what doesn't happen in contemporary, um, mental health services is their spiritual needs aren't met. And that is often what people are seeking. Some connections, some understanding of how this universe works, where they fit in with that, um, what their, their particular way of being means within that. However it's expressed in terms of label of mental illness. And it was the spirits who element that was making the biggest, biggest difference. We worked with people in the 12 step program, which of course is a, a, an addiction program that looks at something higher than yourself and for the people that couldn't identify with a god, they will identifying with nature, so the, the nature of work fitted really well with that, uh, and the use of this ancient knowledge and symbols and things that have been tried previously for thousands of years.

Speaker 2:17:16And of course where we deliver, where we're doing this podcast now is a Celtic area. All this, all this line along the downs here that people can't see on the podcast is I'm absolutely an area of outstanding natural beauty is ancient. Celtic, uh, were ancient Celtic life took place. So there's ancient burial grounds, tumor lie, the standing stones, and there's a Ley line that runs or evade that runs a line of energy that runs through all of this that we also tap into on the wolf medicine course. It's having some phenomenal outcomes in terms of people changing their paradigms and their ways of thinking until we also measured with. We did a proper research study. Otherwise, it's never going to get any anyway for, with, uh, with the sort of the public health departments or NHS. So we've got to have some measurement and we measured addiction and the improvements in a ditch, nine levels of a line different.

Speaker 2:18:27Uh, no, what's the word I can't think. Not Stages of addiction, but nine different sort of related to addiction might relationships and self care and mental health and, and there was a statistically civic significant improvement in the 92 people that we, we measured with it, but more than anything, it's, it helps people not only connect with nature, they connect with the people that they are on the course with because it's intensive one week course that they come on. So they form these really strong relationships, their own pack, their own tribe, but they also find a better connection with themselves in terms of finding their own power. So wolf medicine isn't, we don't call it a healing program. I'm not an expert or any of any of the people that help facilitate this. They've all been through the program themselves. What it is is helping individuals find their own power by being a catalyst to set up the situation. So we set up the labyrinth and you experienced the Labyrinthian in however way you want your walk it in however way you want, or when we meet with the walls you would take away from that, what you need to take away that you learned from the wolves in terms of their strategies for survival. Because all of it's based on metaphor and symbol, which is extremely powerful in human existence. Long before we had language we used, um, different ways of communication

Speaker 1:20:12when you say you've meet with like when you meet with boom and we used to go to the, the

Speaker 2:20:21wolf center in reading, but recently one of them was Scott out and um, somebody let one of the wolves out. So they are fantastic center in terms of caring for the wolves. They then decided that because of the risk of that wolf was nearly short because it was out. Peter just see wolves as being vicious killers. Walls have completely, they, they'd been much maligned down through history and part of the, um, part of the wolf medicine program is often people with mental illness and addiction problems are a much maligned in the same way. So there's an identity with a wolf that they'd been wrongly, wrongly treated. Um, they decided to shut it down. So we now go to a place in the new forest, we found a pack in the new forest where we can go to. It's only one day out of the five day course.

Speaker 2:21:17One day we spend with horses, equine therapy work. There's nothing to do with riding horses and therapy. So coin therapy works again, all of this is about metaphor and symbol and what we project from ourselves, from our own understanding, our own reality and also about using our senses. So with the equine work is basically around communicating at a different level with animals. So walls and horses both communicate through physical communication. We've developed language which is basically really got in the way of our, are experiencing a, a, um, a blissful existence basically because the language gets in the way. Eighty percent of our communication as humans remains nonverbal, but of course virtually 100 percent with horses and walls is nonverbal. So we spent a lot of time watching, observing and relating that to how we experience life. I'm I'm projecting what we know on to the animals.

Speaker 2:22:34So there is something quite powerful and being validated by a large, powerful animal as well. So for often for people that have not done, not felt validated in their life in any way. If a horse comes up and joins with them and wants to be with them without any, you know, colors and ropes and pulling it along. The horse just joins naturally with them is an incredibly powerful validation for that person. And I've worked with people in the past that, that I've just done equine therapy with and they've come along and had a massive, massive life changing experience. And I can remember one girl saying, my, the people I work with never validate me in the way that that horse has just done. And she went back and gave her notice and moved away and started doing something that she absolutely loved. And that's quite often happens in equine therapy.

Speaker 2:23:33It's so powerful. One off as a metaphor for your whole life and it's a bit sort of Zen. How you do something is how you do everything. So you couldn't hold a mirror up to people and say, look how you interacted with that. How does that, how do you interact with people in your life? How does that reflect that that people come back and just try to enjoy herbs they've left, gone off traveling, and with the one session it's been incredibly powerful. So I've been involved in working with forces and neck one therapy work for about 20 years now. The reason I got interested in that first nature therapies developed obviously from that is that, um, I found because I never had any money, I never, I used to and I absolutely adored horses. I used to get horses that were considered a bit naughty and maybe you can really manage them.

Speaker 2:24:31And then I thought actually that's my work world as well. I'm working with young people that are considered naughty and nobody can manage them. And I work with both in the same way, which is really about validating them, being nonjudgmental and just being consistent in your approach and gentle in your approach. Uh, no nasty surprises and actually just getting alongside my grandma used to say, just walk a mile in their moccasins and just walk here walking a mile in people's footsteps alongside them. And I realized there was a real big parallel between working horses and, and young people and actually anybody really just to be alongside them and give them gently give them experiences, set them up with experiences where they can't fail, don't set them up for experiences where they can fail, which will maybe work with young people, especially experiencing mental health problems. We can set them up to fail some of the things we were asking them to do, especially around schooling and education.

Speaker 3:25:43Yeah, that's really interesting. I think I'm quite a few people go. Well I think it's probably more that I've discovered over the last few years is three sort of depression and things like that is, is for a long time thinking something that I need to solve of cure. Something that like is not right about me, um, and I need to sort of get rid of it. And then slowly coming through that, it's a realization that it's not, that's not it. It's actually something, it's about the whole ecosystem that I'm part of that doesn't work with the way I am. It doesn't, that's not, it's basically the environment I'm in is not conducive to me being healthy. Right. And then I think the more and more speak to people, I think that seems to be the case for the vast majority of things that we have a mental health problem. It just seems to be actually, I think a store problem, but the story of living thing, the way the world is structured around and not say that and it's, it's, it's finding that sense of validation without having to search externally for it and finding great and your origin story. Yes.

Speaker 2:27:10Yeah. I think you're right, Marcus. I think, um, the environment that we've created for humans is not sustainable for our mental health and wellbeing for our spiritual path or whatever you want to say. And when you think back some of the indigenous populations, if somebody was starting to express what we would consider signs of psychosis, often they were the people that were set to become the village shamans or the bar in the village and they would take an and helped through that process of what they were experiencing. Um, probably talked to journey taught a whole different set of ways of being and not to be frightened by it, how to experience it by people that like the existing Shaman probably. But we've lost that. We've lost that. Now when people do start to experience psychosis is considered something seriously wrong. When we missed medicate them to within an inch of their life where they can't even experience anything from their senses anymore.

Speaker 2:28:20I'm done. I don't know what the answer is. I don't know how we can go back to accepting mental illness is part of part of our culture because it's because of what's happened and the stigma associated with it. As we've gone forward. How do we start to roll that back in some way? And I think starting to look at how we addressed spirituality and mental health services is not something you ever ever consider in terms of a care plan for somebody or a treatment order, however you want to call it. The spiritual way of being is there's a loan, uh, if they have a certain religion, you might make sure they get the right food or they might get the right access to resources that they need, but you wouldn't ever help put a path for them and say, well, you can try this or you can try this in terms of feeling more connected spiritually at a metaphysical level

Speaker 3:29:31that's like that. So much baggage around the word spiritual that people just don't want to go there at all. And I know that from my own experiences, that's basically what I used as soon as someone mentioned spiritual or you'd just be like, well, that's a load of nonsense. Like, okay, let's look for the thing that has. Um, but I guess greg spots, were you saying about some of the MCI actualizations yes. Contest the Internet and it, so far it has to be sort of proven. And written about and I had papers on it and, and so part of the mainstream to really. So that's the thing, you need to look for it because it's proven, but actually that's not, I think it was like someone said to me like as a couple of years ago and I think someone's described spirits Ratatouille as this, the search for what it means to be human.

Speaker 3:30:29And when I had that was like, oh hang on, that is that, that's, that's what I, that's basically the mice have underlying thing that I'm doing and I think that helped me grasp onto it. And before that I'd always seen it in terms of stuff religion and sort of just basically just thought people were insane and I thought, but I know. No, I'm quite open to it because I think it's very important part of it by. I know like it's really hard when people aren't. All right, bye. Like most people just drop as soon as that word comes up, just drop that. And so I think it's sort of creating a new story around what that means as well.

Speaker 2:31:10I think you raised a really good point I think because I think often people get spirituality and religion muddled up. You'll see it in the same light, whereas religion is organized and uh, and you know, often moneymaking and harsh in terms of punishing people if they don't follow the right steps. But spirituality is something within you that just about your connection with everything around you and lost the spirituality is really loss of connections.

Speaker 3:31:43Yeah. I'm mean I used to pride myself in the fact that I wasn't a spiritual person, but now anything that is basically priding yourself on most proud of myself for not having a connection to myself. I got so how I say it and I think it's fun because for me anyway, guys down to something, that lack of connection of just not just like following what I thought I was meant to do more I thought it would look like except the, the outside world I know got me into the place where I just didn't really want to be here anymore. Didn't existed, didn't have any joy. The whole thing was a dark, miserable place. I think that's, I guess that's what pushed me to sort of eventually to be like, okay, this isn't working, let's have to maybe start like opening up your mind to other things that you've completed it enough, but be nice if we could sort of have.

Speaker 3:32:42If I didn't, I was wondering if it, it's possible to get to those sort of things without having to go through Easter is not what to get to. I mean like to get to a place where you can have a deeper connection with yourself without having to have like these sort of like really sort of tumultuous experiences and my stuff. But like better, maybe it's not. I'm just thinking maybe just thinking I'm not, maybe it's not the case of avoided them. It's a case of being able to be guided through that. Like you were saying,

Speaker 2:33:18well what we do in medicine is we give people variety of tools. So we don't say this is going to work, that's going to work. What what we say is, um, take his own grief and bereavement. We hold grief and bereavement and we hold it and hold it in it. We can around that, we can hold guilt and all sorts of other feelings with it and actually being able to let go of that grief and bereavement can be very hard for people because they feel they're letting go of the person. So what we do is we do several. We use several tools around letting go and what we say to people is this may work for you. It may not, but this is a tool that once you leave for medicine you can use again and again if you want to. I found the most powerful tool on the wolf medicine program for example, for letting go of everything that you're holding onto is the labyrinth.

Speaker 2:34:16Now that we know that labyrinths of thousands of years old, they been dated back 12,000 years, so pre religion. So they existed before we had organized religion and they exist right round the world and then they found a labyrinth in Egypt. It's older than the pyramids and it's underground for lakes. It's massive. And they found that, for instance, scribed on ancient Sumerian texts and mum, you know, monuments. So we know labyrinths apart of a sacred tool to call it sacred. Yes. Yeah. The are very powerful in terms of releasing and the labyrinth works by. It's different from a maze so it works by your walk the same path in the center and then you walk the same path out. And uh, I think one of the most powerful things about it is you can use it in lots of different ways. You can use it whatever religion you are or wherever you are spiritually to walk the labyrinth.

Speaker 2:35:27The first half of the century is your life up until this point now. And you can place a burden down. So if that's guilt and grief and uh, uh, it's about letting go. You placed that burden down. You can do physically because the body recognizes the physical dynamics. It can't tell the difference between sort of do with the neural plasticity, but I didn't go off on a tangent there, confused myself as well. And you can put it down in. The body recognizes that you have physically put that burden down. It's a relief and a release. And then you walk out of the labyrinth, which is the rest of your life. You're walking forward with all your senses. Mindfully and without carrying that burden in the sense of relief people get from that never ceases to amaze me. The emotional release, the physical release, they walk out completely and honestly different. You can observe it. So some of these ancient tools that we've go the predates Christianity by a long, long time, but Christianity might have just adopted them.

Speaker 1:36:42Thanks very much Kim, for sharing that and for the work that she does. I think it's really, really important. I'm weirdly the day after we had this conversation, I'd, I'd been staying in my combined them. I know Kim's fields and I was out for a walk. Can I stumbled across the ninth grade in labyrinth in the fields and I am it's associate, which you said is I'd be feeling this really strong, intense feelings of loneliness. And I sort of sat with that and experience what that was. And I think it dug really deep down into this of feeding. I sometimes have just stop being good enough not being able to connect to people, which I think is just part of an old pattern. I guess there's a bit of a sense of shame about who I am and that sort of thing, which I don't really sort of associate with myself anymore, but it's still there.

Speaker 1:37:31I guess it's been programmed in. So I sort of took that with me on this walk into the labyrinth and then stood in the middle with my arms stretched out in the air and facing the wind and the rain and I placed this box, this box of shame and guilt and whatever it was down into the middle of the labyrinth. And then was how. And um, that's really powerful. Like, I mean it's, it's this way, it's not repressing emotions. It's not trying to really rich yourself letting go of this clinging to this negative patterns and these old stories. And I really felt so for the next few days, much lighter and much more comfortable just to be by myself and just be. If you ever stumble across the labyrinth, I really advise you to do it. That's great, and if you'd like to find out more about what Kim does, then check out her website which is nature therapy dot.

Speaker 1:38:31Oh wait, hang on. What is it? It is nature therapy. Cic Dot com. I'll put links down below and find out more about Wolf Madison and the other things that Kim does. If you'd like to find out more about my journey, mental health journey around the UK with ministry have changed and my website is www.theministryofchange.org or you can email me at marcus at the Ministry of changed or and also please do check out my patrion page. This is one of the ways that I'm trying to fund this project so I can try and spread these stories even further and that is patrion.com forward slash ministry of change. And with that you get early access to these podcasts. You get extra content, videos, blogs, a little musings and uh, and you really helped me. And as I said at the beginning, it would also be great if you could rate, review and subscribe to this podcast. And that again, really helps me spread these stories further, but mainly I am very, very thankful for you to list for listening and I hope to see you back here again soon. So goodbye.

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